Defense Attorney: Dr. Lorandos, I want to focus you on whether you've studied suggestibility.
Lorandos: Well we had to. We were, when I say we I mean organized psychology, rather shocked at what occurred in some of the famous cases that we've all seen on television.
Defense Attorney: Are you referring to McMartin?
Lorandos: Well I wasn't going to name names.
Defense Attorney: Did I ask you to get some footage from the original experimenters?
Lorandos: Yes. This is a study called the mouse trap study and in this experiment they demonstrated that they could create the memory of events that never happened. What the examiners did was they went to a preschool and they'd play a little question game with them and the questions change from week to week, but there's one question that is the same every week for ten weeks. And so, this first little piece illustrates a little child being asked if you ever got your finger caught in a mouse trap.
Video:
Experimenter: This one says, "Have you ever seen a baby alligator eating apples on an airplane?"
Preschooler: No
Experimenter: No? Have you ever had your finger caught in a mouse trap and had to go to the hospital?
Preschooler: No
Experimenter: No?
End Video
Lorandos: Okay stop. You notice that if you just ask them, they'll tell you the truth. You don't have to pound away and say, "Tell me more, tell me more, tell me more." Just ask them. But, what happens when they're asked again and again?
Video resumes:
Experimenter: You went to the hospital because your finger got caught in a mousetrap.
Preschooler: And it, and it...
Experimenter: Did that happen?
Preschooler: Uh huh.
Experimenter: Did it hurt?
Preschooler: Yeah.
Experimenter: So where in your house is the mousetrap?
Preschooler: It's up at our... Down in the basement.
Experimenter: Down in the basement.
Preschooler: It's next to the firewood.
End Video
Lorandos: Stop. The experiment is reported that when they did this they were shocked at the level of detail that the kids would spontaneously create and they said, "Whoop, time out. We've got to debrief these kids. We've got to tell them that it was just a game. It was just pretend."
Video cuts to black for a few seconds
Defense Attorney: In your opinion does that put to rest whether or not it is possible to implant a belief that you've been sexually molested using suggestion?
Lorandos: All of these experiments demonstrate quite clearly that we can implant ideas of sexual abuse created as false memories.
Defense Attorney: I have no further questions at this time.
Video cuts to black for a few seconds.
Judge: Cross.
Prosecuting Attorney: Good afternoon doctor, how are you doing today?
Lorandos: Fine, thank you.
Prosecuting Attorney: You talked a lot about false accusations. What about the concept of a false denial? You would agree, wouldn't you doctor, that in the area of child sexual abuse, that's a pretty common thing; that kids deny abuse when it actually happens.
Lorandos: No I would not agree. I think that to say that denigrates children that have been sexually abused. Children that have been sexually abused can tell us that they've been abused. To suggest that they're denying it unless we harangue them and uncover it harms them and harms us. I wouldn't say that.
Prosecuting Attorney: Aren't there other reasons though, doctor, that suggest that a child might not want to tell about sexual abuse. Like being ashamed.
Lorandos: Certainly. And no amount of suggestive leading or haranguing questioning is going to get an accurate story out of them.
Prosecuting Attorney: Well, what happens when a kid then turns with a blank stare to you and says, "I don't know what you're talking about."?
Lorandos: You mean to the question, "What do you mean?"?
Prosecuting Attorney: When a child has already said, "He touched me in my privates."
Lorandos: Ok, and then you say, "What do you mean?"
Prosecuting Attorney: And what if they don't tell you anything?
Lorandos: Then they don't tell you anything. You want to stick a suggestible artifact in front of their face and try to manipulate them into testifying about what it is? Like a picture of a naked little girl? How often do they see naked little girls? They don't.
Video cuts to black for a few seconds.
Prosecuting Attorney: Doctor, if I understand this correctly, you did not review any of the three video tapes in this case at all. Correct? The two with Adrian or the one with David?
Lorandos: That would have adulterated the purpose for me being here.
Prosecuting Attorney: And you did not review any of the transcripts that discuss what was on these video tapes, correct?
Lorandos: I specifically asked to be kept out of all of that and to only talk about the science.
Prosecuting Attorney: But you can't apply it at all to the facts of this case.
Lorandos: That's their job, not my job.
Prosecuting Attorney: Why didn't you watch the videos?
Lorandos: Because my job is to be as neutral as possible, to help you, to help him, to help this jury understand what the science is. I'll answer any questions that you have about the science to try to help. But to advocate for one side or the other, I'm not here to do that.
Prosecuting Attorney: Doctor, wouldn't it be an understandable thing if there were problems in these videos, you could point them out to this jury, couldn't you?
Lorandos: I could do that, I've done that in other circumstances.
Prosecuting Attorney: And you didn't look at the videos in this case, correct?
Lorandos: I believe that was my answer.
Prosecuting Attorney: Thank you, nothing further at this time.
Video cuts to black for a few seconds.
Defense Attorney: If you were to evaluate a tape and it was the sixth time the child was interviewed, would you want to have the first five interviews also taped, so you could see them?
Lorandos: Yes, absolutely.
Defense Attorney: I have no further questions at this time.
Video cuts to black for a few seconds.
Judge: We'll take our break at this point ladies and gentlemen.
Lorandos: Thanks.
Prosecuting Attorney (whispering): I don't know if any of this is making sense. Am I making any points?
Second Prosecuting Attorney (whispering): I think so. He's starting to give in to us.
Prosecuting Attorney (whispering): I know. But am I coming off bitchy?
Second Prosecuting Attorney (whispering): No that's it. I'd say start wrapping it up.
Prosecuting Attorney (whispering): Ok.
